• n2burns@lemmy.ca
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    10 months ago

    Can someone explain to me how this is “A Breach of Yemeni Sovereignty”? It seems like these actions are supported by the internationally recognized government in Yemen. (I’m not asking about the validity of these actions, or the horrendous effects of them. Just the sovereignty question)

    Also, is this the interviewee? It appears she is a language and literacy assistant professor who happens to be Yemeni American, not an expert on the Yemen war, international law, or anything else relevant to these events.

    • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
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      10 months ago

      Ansar Allah movement controls the territory where 80% of Yemeni population lives and enjoys mass public support. The fact that burger empire and its vassals refuse to recognize sovereignty and right to self determination of other nations just further exposes the moral bankruptcy of the west.

    • PrinceWith999Enemies@lemmy.world
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      10 months ago

      It is in no way a breach of Yemeni authority. th government has no control over the territory in question, and it is being used to make repeated military strikes against US military and international civilian targets. This is entirely legal and justified under both US and international law. I’m just surprised it took this long.

      • cecinestpasunbot@lemmy.ml
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        10 months ago

        If a government has no control over the populated regions of a country how can anyone reasonably consider it a legitimate government?

        • PrinceWith999Enemies@lemmy.world
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          10 months ago

          There are plenty of legitimate governments - and to be clear, by “legitimate” we usually mean the government recognized by the international community, whether or not any given people think they’re good guys or whatever - who do not control all of the territory they claim.

          The point is that if a territory is under control of a foreign or rebel group and is attacking international civilian or military assets, then the international community can respond if the country that has claims to the territory cannot. I’m not even sure that the Yemeni government is in a position to coordinate strikes at this point, but that would be the standard approach otherwise.

          If the Proud Boys took over south Texas and started launching military attacks against Mexican military facilities, and the US government was unable to stop them, Mexico and the international community would be within their legal rights to stop them.

          • cecinestpasunbot@lemmy.ml
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            10 months ago

            It’s the US and the UK that are carrying out the bombings here. They alone do not constitute the international community. They do not have the right to determine what entities are sovereign or not.

            As far as Ansar Allah goes, they control most of Yemen including the capital. It’s a farce to pretend they’re some breakaway rebel group and not the de facto government.

            • PrinceWith999Enemies@lemmy.world
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              10 months ago

              The civilian shipping lines that were attacked without provocation were and are part of the international community, so I have no idea what you’re talking about. In addition, US military vessels were directly and repeatedly attacked, which international law permits as deserving of a military response. The US would be within its rights to start an attack using tomahawks as well as loitering drones over the territory to hit vehicles and personnel.

              • TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml
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                10 months ago

                Which would be perfectly apt for Ansarallah and Yemen’s allies to carpet bomb too. USA needs some of that treatment they did to North Korea in the 1980s.

              • cecinestpasunbot@lemmy.ml
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                10 months ago

                The US and Saudi Arabia tried to just that for the last decade and failed while killing thousands of civilians in the process. Maybe it’s time to try actually negotiating.

    • cecinestpasunbot@lemmy.ml
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      10 months ago

      The internationally recognized government does not have control over the populated regions of the country. It’s a farce to pretend they represent the Yemeni people.

      • n2burns@lemmy.ca
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        10 months ago

        That’s not really an answer to my question. “Control” does not get you sovereignty, and neither does “representing the people”. It comes down to governance and international recognition. Mexican cartels control large areas of the country, but no one is arguing they have sovereignty. Similarly, there are many repressive regimes in the world that do not represent their people, but they maintain their sovereignty.

        • cecinestpasunbot@lemmy.ml
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          10 months ago

          Your analogy falls flat because, while powerful, cartels are rarely looking to supplant state control. Instead they seek state complicity which is a different thing altogether.

          Ansar Allah on the other hand has set up its own governance structures. As I said, most of the populated regions of Yemen are governed under these structures. That’s despite a US backed campaign to bomb and starve them out over most of the last decade.

          If the US doesn’t want to recognize the sovereignty of the Ansar Allah led Yemeni government then the US concept of sovereignty is effectively meaningless.

          • n2burns@lemmy.ca
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            10 months ago

            Your analogy falls flat because while powerful cartels are rarely looking to supplant state control. Instead they seek state complicity which is a different thing altogether.

            Okay, what about IS? Did they have Sovereignty?

            If the US doesn’t want to recognize the sovereignty of the Ansar Allah led Yemeni government then the US concept of sovereignty is effectively meaningless.

            If you/anyone else thinks sovereignty is meaningless, that’s fine but it’s not what I asked about. My original question was how is this “A breach of sovereignty”? You don’t seem to be arguing why it is a breach of sovereignty.

            • cecinestpasunbot@lemmy.ml
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              10 months ago

              Again that’s a terrible analogy. ISIS was an international insurgency that went so far as to explicitly reject the very concept of modern day nation states. Of course they didn’t deserve to be treated as a sovereign power.

              Conversely Ansar Allah is a domestic organization. It’s commonly referred to as the Houthi movement because it has many leaders who are Houthis, a Yemeni tribe. They rose to power after the previous Yemeni government faced a crisis of legitimacy during the Arab spring.

            • cecinestpasunbot@lemmy.ml
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              10 months ago

              I’m not? The US is using an incoherent notion of sovereignty that just so happens to align with their geopolitical interests. Sorry if that’s a hard truth for you to accept.

                • cecinestpasunbot@lemmy.ml
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                  10 months ago

                  You’re acting as if the US just has to bomb people like it’s a law of nature. So absurd lol

                  • TigrisMorte@kbin.social
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                    10 months ago

                    Nope, the US simply shall bomb anyone that threatens their economy sufficiently. Gets proven a whole bunch.

          • takeda@lemmy.world
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            10 months ago

            Even if you are right, which doesn’t look like you are, then the Yemeni “government” started war with the US and other countries by attacking their ships.

            • cecinestpasunbot@lemmy.ml
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              10 months ago

              I mean the US has basically at war with them for the better part of the last decade already. Also Ansar Allah did declare war on Israel.

              • takeda@lemmy.world
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                10 months ago

                I think you meant Saudi Arabia. There’s nothing interesting there in Yemen for the US government. They only decided to provide a response after one of Iranian/Houthi rockets was fired at their ship.

        • LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net
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          10 months ago

          The issue is that the sovereignty of nation states is a somewhat nonsensical idea that has little to no solid philosophical backing. Nations aren’t living things and shouldn’t have rights in the same way people have. They are imaginary constructs, and the consequences of this are inevitable debates over what is or is not a nation. But there is no clear dividing line or definition—and in this ambiguity, powerful nations are free to recognize or ignore nations as they choose.

          If you support the US action, you can claim that the Houthis are not a sovereign nation, the action was at the invitation of the legitimate government of this region against an terrorist organization, and was entirely legal and justified.

          If you oppose the action, you claim that Houthis are a group of freedom fighters who have established a new separate nation that should be recognized, and this action was an illegal violation of that newfound sovereignty.

          Neither can be said to be completely correct or incorrect because there is no solid basis for this idea of sovereignty.

          • HobbitFoot @thelemmy.club
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            10 months ago

            I look at it more like this.

            If you treat the Houthis as a non-sovereign entity, they can be attacked freely under international law by the international community as pirates.

            If you treat the Houthis as a sovereign entity, they can be attacked under international law by affected nations as the attacks can be interpreted as an act of war.

            So it doesn’t really matter if they are sovereign or not.

            • n2burns@lemmy.ca
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              10 months ago

              It matters because if the Houthis are a non-sovereign entity, then POTUS can order an attack under prior congressional approvals. However, if they are a Sovereign State, then attacking them would be an act of war, requiring congressional approval.

              • HobbitFoot @thelemmy.club
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                10 months ago

                If the issue is with American law instead of international law, then you need to use the American list of recognized sovereign nations. Does the USA recognize the Houthis as leading a sovereign nation?

          • n2burns@lemmy.ca
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            10 months ago

            That doesn’t answer my question either. I wasn’t the one who brought up sovereignty, it was the article. It seems to ridiculous to say, this is “A Breach of Yemeni Sovereignty” but no one seems to able to assert the Houthis have sovereignty to start with.

          • TigrisMorte@kbin.social
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            10 months ago

            None of which matters as the Houthis committed Acts of War and were idiots not to accept this would be the response when flat out told it would be.

    • bartolomeo@suppo.fi
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      10 months ago

      these actions are supported by the internationally recognized government in Yemen.

      Do you mean the US attacks are supported by tye Yemen government? Do you have a source for that handy?

      And great investigation into the interviewee, that kind of critical thinking is extremely important.

    • naturalgasbad@lemmy.ca
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      10 months ago

      This is the same “international recognition” that doesn’t consider Taiwan to be a legitimate government?

      International recognition isn’t worth shit. Ansarallah has de facto control over the vast majority of Yemen’s territory. Just as the ROC is the government of Taiwan, Ansarallah is the government of Yemen.

      • TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml
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        10 months ago

        I have seen this level of argumentation by an anonymous Scottish Nazi (yes, actual English NatSoc) while talking to me. Sounds about correct for your ilk.

          • TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml
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            10 months ago

            LMAO you are so stupid. ROC is not a fucking government, it is the official name of Taiwan, Republic of China. The government in ROC province is a ruling party DPP, that is a US stooge, and is falling out of favour with the Taiwanese locals, as both Kuomintang and the Taiwanese people are wanting to reunite with the mainland, free of US/NATO interference. They have seen what happened to Ukraine, and they do not want Taiwan to become another used condom for American superimperialist war fetishes.

            • naturalgasbad@lemmy.ca
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              10 months ago

              Both the KMT and the TPP are in favour of closer ties, not reunification.

              It’s far more likely Taiwan ends up in a One Country, Two Systems dynamic.

              • TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml
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                10 months ago

                Delusion is peaking, beware. Formosa no longer wants to stay away from their true brethren, Chinese people, which they themselves are too. America and white/English people will never be friends or their own people.

                I wonder if you ever noticed that Taiwan never launched their own currency, or declared independence and asked for dejure sovereign status. There must be a reason for that. Try to look at it critically.

      • n2burns@lemmy.ca
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        10 months ago

        Thank you for providing a good example! I’m really not sure what the status of Taiwan’s Sovereignty would be, but it’s definitely something to think about.