Oh look, a boss fight. Will this be a fair-and-balanced skill-based experience? Or will it be a DPS race against the clock and hoping I get good RNG on the enemy attack patterns so I don’t die to mostly unavoidable or unreactable damage?
If you want to play the game as a glass cannon DPS machine, you can do that with the right parts. But there’s nothing stopping you from actually reading boss patterns and dodging them. The only boss this doesn’t apply to is the first one, and I suspect it will get nerfed because of how many people are complaining about it. Some damage is unavoidable but it’s minor, every big attack is dodgable and even accompanied by a loud warning sound. I don’t think it’s unfair.
But there’s nothing stopping you from actually reading boss patterns and dodging them.
Is there enough information to do this on the first time through, if you have enough skill? Or is it necessary to try and fail multiple times to see and learn each pattern?
How would the game give you any more information than it already does without worsening gameplay? Like sure, you can make the boss’ moves slower and more telegraphed. Put in Atreus to tell you the Boss’ weakness or something while you fight him. I’m personally not a fan of that.
I definitely dislike this dynamic in games. If you’re only able to win because you built up muscle memory for that specific segment of the game, it doesn’t feel like a real win, feels almost as unrewarding as grinding XP to make things easier.
If you don’t enjoy practicing bosses, FromSoft games will probably not be for you.
This is not a dunk! There is nothing inherently superior or worthwhile about games that require practice. I personally enjoy Soulslike games, but people who claim they’re they’re the One True Genre are just fooling themselves.
Probably, though I did beat and enjoy the first three games in the Dark Souls series (if you include Demon’s Souls) before I got tired of it, despite having to iterate on some bosses. There are a few saving graces that make it tolerable: effective options for cheesing, being able to grind XP/gear to make it easier, mandatory downtime between fights that punishes trying to brute force practice them, the option to give up for a while and go explore somewhere else, the presence of more dynamics to fights to optimize than correctly reacting to patterns to the point where you can remain mostly ignorant of them and still win another way. Playing DS3 I got the feeling that maybe the issue was getting worse and I was kind of burned out on the gameplay overall so I dropped it.
I would cite Super Meat Boy as a more pure example of the problem I’m talking about, that game left me feeling brain fried and like I hadn’t learned or accomplished anything.
mandatory downtime between fights that punishes trying to brute force practice them
Fascinating. This would frustrate the hell out of me - if I’m trying to get better at something, the last thing I want is enforced wait-time between practice attempts! Still, I’m glad you’ve found other games that you enjoy more rather than being influenced by the Internet’s collective fan-boner for FromSoft.
I’d like to direct your attention to the prior games in the series we’re discussing, which have no such issues despite being made by Fromsoft. This “hurr durr issa Fromsoft boss get used to it” schtick is fucking insufferable and ignores the 15 years of history that company had before making those godawful Dark Souls games.
I think the boss is fairly readable and I can take it down quickly, it’s just annoying that it can fly out of bounds where I can’t hit it but it can still fire at me. That and your starting mech isn’t the best either but I got an S rank on that level after 4-5 attempts.
Yeah the first boss isn’t a great first impression. I knew I could beat it in <5 tries but what annoyed me was how boring it was. Basically shoot at the broad side of a barn while hiding behind cover.
I went the other way around. I went all in with my energy sword. Stayed mid air under it as much as possible to use the rockets. When the second blade combo attack hits, it get staggered and you just pummel the boss. Rince and repeat
In my experience, you don’t have to compromise. You can take meta dual shotguns and two heavy hitting shoulder mounts and just vaporize enemies. Almost trivially, in fact.
The problem is, the game is not more fun if you force yourself into something like a melee hybrid build. It’s significantly harder and there’s less room for error when piloting lightweight ACs, so it’s no surprise that most people find the most comfortable build to be one where you have high health and damage mitigation, insane burst DPS, and stunlock potential.
In short, there’s not a good balance between the different playstyles and difficulty. Some bosses are actually really fun to fight, but two or three of them have made my shit list already just due to the nonsense you are forced to put up with. Juggernaut, Balteus, and Sea Spider are the three biggest offenders right now.
I had very little trouble with Juggernaut once I started fighting him from the air. He has a very low max firing angle and you can get a nice, clear shot on his butthole from directly above him.
My gripe with him isn’t so much his fight mechanic, it’s his absolutely massive hitbox that activates whenever it moves a centimeter.
Fighting him from the air is the most efficient, I’ve discovered, but I spent a good few attempts trying to get in close with the plasma blade and would see three quarters of my HP bar disappear because my recovery animation overlapped with the startup of his charge attack that shouldn’t have been able to hit me because I was to his side or rear.
The Cataphract has been my favorite fight so far. Really challenging, but really rewarding.
No clue what you’re talking about with bad hitboxes. Dark Souls 1 suffered from this a bit. Dark Souls 2 as well. Bloodborne, Dark Souls 3, Sekiro, and Elden Ring had near damn perfect hitboxes.
It’s a Dark Souls boss, not an Armored Core boss. AC bosses in previous games were usually (with the exception of For Answer) just other ACs with really good AI piloting them, not giant, unique things with mechanics that you don’t see anywhere else.
That alone is enough for me to wish they’d called it something else.
Yeah the arena disappointed the very shit right out of my ass. I just finished it last night and expected the S-rank contenders to be even slightly more difficult than the D-rank ones, but they weren’t.
Arena should have been increasingly demanding fights that each require a unique build to conquer. Or even better, each fight should have made you use a pre-set loadout, so you’d have to explore and learn new builds, and that knowledge could then be carried into designing mechs for the campaign missions.
I bet theres a lot of people out there not changing it up at all, missing out on an a lot that the game has to offer.
Ideally each one could have made you adapt to and learn new mechanics.
But it seems each one is just a randomized loadout or a character from the story, with the exact same AI slapped on.
The arena is honestly pretty close to how it was in the old games. Hell, in 4A, if you beat White Glint in the story missions before beating her in the arena, you got to skip the arena fight entirely on account of her being dead.
Forcing players to use a specific build goes against the entire spirit of the series, though.
It’s just an idea I had from a game design perspective.
Nier: Automata is one game with which I saw a lot of people complain, as the game does nearly nothing to get you to actually experiment with different weapon combinations and plug-in chips, and a lot of people overlook those systems because of it. And hence the experience of some players suffered.
Pre-set loadouts in arenas could have been used to address that design problem by showing players the possibilities.
Although, it wouldn’t necessarily need to be mandatory. Each arena fight could come with a “recommended AC” for countering the opponent, while still allowing players to take in their own mech should they want to. This could have come with the fights being a lot harder as well, making using your own design viable only if you know what you’re doing.
Oh look, a boss fight. Will this be a fair-and-balanced skill-based experience? Or will it be a DPS race against the clock and hoping I get good RNG on the enemy attack patterns so I don’t die to mostly unavoidable or unreactable damage?
If you want to play the game as a glass cannon DPS machine, you can do that with the right parts. But there’s nothing stopping you from actually reading boss patterns and dodging them. The only boss this doesn’t apply to is the first one, and I suspect it will get nerfed because of how many people are complaining about it. Some damage is unavoidable but it’s minor, every big attack is dodgable and even accompanied by a loud warning sound. I don’t think it’s unfair.
Is there enough information to do this on the first time through, if you have enough skill? Or is it necessary to try and fail multiple times to see and learn each pattern?
How would the game give you any more information than it already does without worsening gameplay? Like sure, you can make the boss’ moves slower and more telegraphed. Put in Atreus to tell you the Boss’ weakness or something while you fight him. I’m personally not a fan of that.
I definitely dislike this dynamic in games. If you’re only able to win because you built up muscle memory for that specific segment of the game, it doesn’t feel like a real win, feels almost as unrewarding as grinding XP to make things easier.
If you don’t enjoy practicing bosses, FromSoft games will probably not be for you.
This is not a dunk! There is nothing inherently superior or worthwhile about games that require practice. I personally enjoy Soulslike games, but people who claim they’re they’re the One True Genre are just fooling themselves.
Probably, though I did beat and enjoy the first three games in the Dark Souls series (if you include Demon’s Souls) before I got tired of it, despite having to iterate on some bosses. There are a few saving graces that make it tolerable: effective options for cheesing, being able to grind XP/gear to make it easier, mandatory downtime between fights that punishes trying to brute force practice them, the option to give up for a while and go explore somewhere else, the presence of more dynamics to fights to optimize than correctly reacting to patterns to the point where you can remain mostly ignorant of them and still win another way. Playing DS3 I got the feeling that maybe the issue was getting worse and I was kind of burned out on the gameplay overall so I dropped it.
I would cite Super Meat Boy as a more pure example of the problem I’m talking about, that game left me feeling brain fried and like I hadn’t learned or accomplished anything.
Fascinating. This would frustrate the hell out of me - if I’m trying to get better at something, the last thing I want is enforced wait-time between practice attempts! Still, I’m glad you’ve found other games that you enjoy more rather than being influenced by the Internet’s collective fan-boner for FromSoft.
I’d like to direct your attention to the prior games in the series we’re discussing, which have no such issues despite being made by Fromsoft. This “hurr durr issa Fromsoft boss get used to it” schtick is fucking insufferable and ignores the 15 years of history that company had before making those godawful Dark Souls games.
deleted by creator
I think the boss is fairly readable and I can take it down quickly, it’s just annoying that it can fly out of bounds where I can’t hit it but it can still fire at me. That and your starting mech isn’t the best either but I got an S rank on that level after 4-5 attempts.
Yeah the first boss isn’t a great first impression. I knew I could beat it in <5 tries but what annoyed me was how boring it was. Basically shoot at the broad side of a barn while hiding behind cover.
I went the other way around. I went all in with my energy sword. Stayed mid air under it as much as possible to use the rockets. When the second blade combo attack hits, it get staggered and you just pummel the boss. Rince and repeat
In my experience, you don’t have to compromise. You can take meta dual shotguns and two heavy hitting shoulder mounts and just vaporize enemies. Almost trivially, in fact.
The problem is, the game is not more fun if you force yourself into something like a melee hybrid build. It’s significantly harder and there’s less room for error when piloting lightweight ACs, so it’s no surprise that most people find the most comfortable build to be one where you have high health and damage mitigation, insane burst DPS, and stunlock potential.
In short, there’s not a good balance between the different playstyles and difficulty. Some bosses are actually really fun to fight, but two or three of them have made my shit list already just due to the nonsense you are forced to put up with. Juggernaut, Balteus, and Sea Spider are the three biggest offenders right now.
I had very little trouble with Juggernaut once I started fighting him from the air. He has a very low max firing angle and you can get a nice, clear shot on his butthole from directly above him.
My gripe with him isn’t so much his fight mechanic, it’s his absolutely massive hitbox that activates whenever it moves a centimeter.
Fighting him from the air is the most efficient, I’ve discovered, but I spent a good few attempts trying to get in close with the plasma blade and would see three quarters of my HP bar disappear because my recovery animation overlapped with the startup of his charge attack that shouldn’t have been able to hit me because I was to his side or rear.
The Cataphract has been my favorite fight so far. Really challenging, but really rewarding.
I’ve felt this, too. But actually I just hadn’t figured out the right response to any given attack.
Manage your EN right, and everything is avoidable.
I guess we are playing different games if this has been your experience.
So it’s a Fromsoft boss
Fromsoft bosses are ALWAYS incredibly fair. They may require practice but you can absolutely learn every boss and master them.
LOL
They are tho… like literally designed to be challenging but with perseverance, overcame.
There’s no way they can’t be challenging with all of the bad hit boxes.
No clue what you’re talking about with bad hitboxes. Dark Souls 1 suffered from this a bit. Dark Souls 2 as well. Bloodborne, Dark Souls 3, Sekiro, and Elden Ring had near damn perfect hitboxes.
Fromsoft isn’t going to date you. You don’t have to lie for them.
It’s a Dark Souls boss, not an Armored Core boss. AC bosses in previous games were usually (with the exception of For Answer) just other ACs with really good AI piloting them, not giant, unique things with mechanics that you don’t see anywhere else.
That alone is enough for me to wish they’d called it something else.
I mean, there are actual ACvAC fights, too.
Though I do wish the arena AIs weren’t mental three-year-olds. They go down like wet paper.
Yeah the arena disappointed the very shit right out of my ass. I just finished it last night and expected the S-rank contenders to be even slightly more difficult than the D-rank ones, but they weren’t.
Arena should have been increasingly demanding fights that each require a unique build to conquer. Or even better, each fight should have made you use a pre-set loadout, so you’d have to explore and learn new builds, and that knowledge could then be carried into designing mechs for the campaign missions.
I bet theres a lot of people out there not changing it up at all, missing out on an a lot that the game has to offer.
Ideally each one could have made you adapt to and learn new mechanics.
But it seems each one is just a randomized loadout or a character from the story, with the exact same AI slapped on.
The arena is honestly pretty close to how it was in the old games. Hell, in 4A, if you beat White Glint in the story missions before beating her in the arena, you got to skip the arena fight entirely on account of her being dead.
Forcing players to use a specific build goes against the entire spirit of the series, though.
It’s just an idea I had from a game design perspective.
Nier: Automata is one game with which I saw a lot of people complain, as the game does nearly nothing to get you to actually experiment with different weapon combinations and plug-in chips, and a lot of people overlook those systems because of it. And hence the experience of some players suffered.
Pre-set loadouts in arenas could have been used to address that design problem by showing players the possibilities.
Although, it wouldn’t necessarily need to be mandatory. Each arena fight could come with a “recommended AC” for countering the opponent, while still allowing players to take in their own mech should they want to. This could have come with the fights being a lot harder as well, making using your own design viable only if you know what you’re doing.