Personally, I strongly agree with your colleague. If you truly believe openness is a good thing (and it sounds like you do), Apple’s ethos is just about the direct antithesis. They only collaborate with the wider tech industry when they absolutely have to. Otherwise, they are greedy, secretive, controlling, and vindictive - oftentimes openly hostile to anyone who dares choose a non-Apple device/platform.

The best example of this is the iMessage “green bubbles” phenomenon. Some background: Apple’s default texting experience is iMessage. This service has a bunch of nice, modern chat features - except they’re only available when texting another iPhone. These “better” messages are indicated by blue bubbles. People who don’t use iPhones (whether by choice or by necessity) are forced to use the ancient, insecure, feature-poor SMS protocol, reducing the privacy and security of everyone involved (including iPhone users). It’s also extremely obvious when this happens, since the chat app will switch to green bubbles.

In places where this service has caught on (such as the US), Apple uses this separation to deliberately make texting non-iPhone users a significantly worse experience. This causes social effects, especially among teenagers, where those who don’t use iPhone are bullied and shunned for being a “green bubble”. The Wall Street Journal did a great expose into this phenomenon.

Now, to be clear, this is a totally artificial problem - Apple could fix this overnight if they wanted. For years, the wider tech industry has been working on replacing SMS with a much more modern standard called RCS. Every single other party in the mobile industry has moved on. Apple, however, is the lone holdout. They see kids bullying other kids into buying an iPhone as a good thing - more iPhone sales! In fact, Apple openly encouraged that narrative: when a journalist asked the (very reasonable) question of “how can I make texting with my Android-user mom better?”, Apple CEO Tim Cook responded with “buy your mom an iPhone.”

There’s plenty more examples of this I could talk about, but this one is the most telling.

Of course, if you do choose to go all in with them, you won’t see that side of Apple at all. They are frighteningly good at cultivating their image as the “good guys” among Big Tech, and, honestly, it’s not unwarranted. They are good at what they do, and they do take care of their users. Their tech is great.

Ultimately, my take is that if you prefer using it over more open alternatives, don’t change what you like! Just remember that they have a dark side. It is good to be aware of the wider tech ecosystem, and to make open technology choices where you can. By being active on the Fediverse, you’re already doing your part 😁

Dont feel too bad about not knowing everything from everywhere, as you said you arent a tech guy, but lets get to your questions

1. Privacy thats…depending on how you see it, supposedly they don’t sell to third partys but they do use it for you
2. I will never support them, not only are their prices disgustingly high compared to their quality, their walled garden and fucking tooth and nail fight to keep it that way isnt helping helping
3. While not required I do think they should at least look into all of it for a bit

Im the end, do whatever you wanna do

I 100% agree with your colleague, though I don’t agree with his purity test. You’re allowed to feel the way you do about medicine and still use whatever products you want. But, yeah, I don’t own or use and Apple products, though I would like to own and restore an Apple IIe.

It is with high confidence and with a straight face that I can state my opinion that Microsoft is a better partner of open source software than Apple. Microsoft contributes back, Apple pretty much doesn’t. They’re better than AWS, but that’s more a matter of damning with faint praise.

Apple’s built up a vertically integrated market of disposable widgets which cannot be repaired or upgraded. Their sole positive is they’re better than the other guys at keeping older software updated, but I’m sure they did the math on having their customers not getting hacked at the time.

I’m my opinion they’re worth looking at for anti-trust.

I spent many years trying to be as FOSS as I could. I tried many different Linux distros, hunted for open source operating systems for my phone (at the time, none did even the basic things I needed it to do) until one day I decided I was sick to death of having to spend hours researching and trying multiple arcane cli commands to get even simple things to work (like WiFi). I realised that I was wasting an enormous amount of time being all-things-open-source.

My next purchase as a macbook as it was based on a *nix and I’ve come to realise that while Apple is a walled garden and in some ways is ‘evil’, it’s less evil than Google is now, or Microsoft was back in the day.

I also like the way that the various Apple devices work really well together. But I hate the fact that it’s harder to hack things to be the way that I want. Don’t get me wrong, I still love open source software, but I have too few years left to waste them on modifying config.org files, or whatever they do now, so I’m much more selective with what I use. I tend to use FOSS applications on MacOS where the software works well enough.

Not trying to bash FOSS, just my 2 cents.

To get the point since as you’ve stated your brain is filled.

Here’s how I view Apple:

• anti consumer
  • Test
• anti developer
• anti privacy
• anti right to repair

From a practical perspective, even using open source takes some time and effort. I suspect many people gravitate towards apple is because they nail the basics and have a great out of the box experience.

I’m against Apple in principle, but that doesn’t mean I didnt get an M1 air when I had to upgrade a year or something ago - it was simply the best in the market for the price at the time.

Also apple does not respect privacy nearly as much as they love to tout. Open source in general has a much better track record with privacy because of the people building the tools don’t have as much profit incentive or government oversight.

Edit: you’ll never catch me dead with an iPhone or iPad though, Apple’s mobile browsing experience has no ad block.

I’ll preface this by saying don’t beat yourself up for using Apple. You can be critical and still use their products. I am typing this on Windows 10 and have a macbook for work. Microsoft and Google are far from perfect in this space. As the saying goes, “there is no ethical consumption under capitalism” lol.

I think you should use open source software but I don’t think you should force yourself if good alternatives don’t exist for your use case. A good example is Photoshop. The open source version is GIMP. I use GIMP mostly because I don’t want to pay for Photoshop but from what I’ve heard from people who edit pictures professionally it is not even a competition.

Compare that to Audacity, my understanding is more people in the audio world use it. Or VLC Media player! It can basically open any format of video, it’s crazy!

If you’re curious to try a linux desktop operating system the choices will become overwhelming like you said. Ubuntu is the go-to suggestion usually. There are ways to create “live USBs” to run it from the USB like a test drive (but it may be slow). I’ve decided my next computer I build I’m going to run Linux primarily but I haven’t got around to building it.

I haven’t owned any Apple products since the ipod nano in 2005, and have only used Linux, specifically Ubuntu), since 2008 (then my sophomore year in college) for exactly the reasons your colleague spells out. I try to use open-source software whenever possible. Apple is the most closed-source vendor available to me, so I have no intention of ever using their products. When I was a teenager / early 20s I would espouse the evils of Apple to anyone who was nearby, whether they wanted to listen or not. Now, I cringe at the memory of that behavior and let people live their lives.

I do see why your colleague connected the dots between your two separate arguments, and I do see where they’re coming from. The idea of Freedom of Scientific Information and FOSS do have many parallels, but I don’t think you need to beat yourself up over using Apple vs more open-sourced software. I don’t really think there’s anything particularly wrong with Apple devices, and when my current laptop starts to go I might even consider one of their offerings. But my needs are simple enough that Ubuntu has always worked for me. As far as phones, I just like Android better (and more of it is open-sourced).

Thank you for opening yourself up to the discourse!

First of all: I don’t use any apple products, because I strongly disagree with the company on an ideological level.

My opinion on apple products, personal opinion that is, is that the walled garden approach has pros and cons. Meaning, they control everything within their ecosystem. You can’t install a third party app without it being approved on the appstore first. This is good in the sense, that there is virtually zero risk of bad actors being able to access your systems. This is bad, because it allows apple to dictatorially allow/reject apps, and ideas that they don’t agree with. I don’t know if they have done this, but it would not surprise me.

Another large issue I have, as a nerd, with apple’s approach. Is that having everything easily accessible and controlled by the company (here I mean things like, its more difficult to make changes to your computer as compared to linux, where you have full control) makes for a tech-illiterate public. Anecdotally, I have friends who are very skilled at tech, one is a space-tech student, the other a high-level games programmer, and both feel they can’t switch to another phone than Iphone, because it is such a specific way of interconnectedness that exists when you have all apple products. It is so easy to airdrop, or screen share, cloud save etc etc. That it is a fundamentally different experience to use anything else. Now, that might seem like a pro for apple, but my issue is that this interconnectedness should be a priority between ecosystems too. Ideally I would like to have these features as a given on any system, like email can talk to email (fediverse hype), instead of being locked to a single ecosystem.

In conclusion: Apple is known for keeping their information under lock and key, and not allowing any interference with their systems. I think this is bad.

Thanks for bringing it up! And remember there is no right/wrong, except what you personally feel good about.

I don’t like Apple because of their anti-user, anti-third party policies, but their quality, interoperability, and privacy make me pick it over google for my phone, tablet, and watch.

Granted, it I could replace those things with FOSS alternatives that worked as well as Apple products do, I would in a heart beat.

I think it’s a bit of a mixed bag. Their ecosystem may be good and all but they deliberately don’t interoperate very well with others. Example: if I plug my iPhone into my windows laptop, it will only expose the gallery, unlike with Android where it will allow me to transfer non image files. I have to download another app (iTunes, and now the Apple Devices App which is currently in preview) in order to be able to transfer files via cable (KDE Connect or Localsend are also good options for this). Then there’s their sticking with their own cable when everyone else is going to USB C, and their refusal to implement proper messaging with Android users/integrate with RCS - granted, RCS has its own set of issues, but still. And of course there’s their refusal to allow sideloading, which has led to governments being able to censor apps from the app store. It doesn’t help that App Store review isn’t the best at catching security issues, as scam apps slip through from time to time. The EU seems to be trying to fix this with their new regulations, but it’s now speculated that Apple will be petty and region lock sideloading.

Their hardware is nice and performant, but unfortunately they’re against upgradeability as well as right to repair. I don’t watch him much, but I think Louis Rossmann’s youtube channel is recommended for learning about this.

I don’t have strong opinions on their hardware/software design and aesthetics, it works for me, but I can see why others don’t like how opinionated they are. I don’t like how Android phones have been getting bigger, but it’s not the end of the world for me should I switch to a Pixel.

Privacy and security wise they overmarket too much but they do have some advantages:

• No OEM bloat/telemetry. With Samsung phones for example, you’ll have to put up with Samsung telemetry and Google’s data collection. With Apple, you only have Apple nonsense to put up with.
• iOS devices tend to get updates for longer, and they backport critical patches to older devices. While Android is more modular (allowing Google to update certain parts of the system through google play services), and the situation is improving (newer Google Pixels get 5 years of security updates now), iOS still has a slight edge.
• For Macbooks, I’ll just quote the Asashi Linux documentation:

It would be remiss not to briefly cover where these machines stand in terms of user control and trustability. Apple Silicon machines are designed first and foremost to provide a secure environment for typical end-users running macOS as signed by Apple; they prioritize user security against third-party attackers, but also attempt to limit Apple’s own control over the machines in order to reduce their responsibility when faced with government requests, to some extent. In addition, the design preserves security even when a third-party OS is installed.

…

From a security perspective, these machines may possibly qualify as the most secure general purpose computers available to the public which support third-party OSes, in terms of resistance to attack by non-owners. This is, of course, predicated on some level of trust in Apple, but some level of trust in the manufacturer is required for any system (there is no way to prove the non-existence of hardware backdoors on any machine, so this is not as much of a sticking point as it might initially seem).

• Lockdown Mode, which apparently has somewhat protected against zero click exploits.

• For iOS Safari (no clue on Mac), they allow adblocking without having to grant the extension privileged access to the page. This includes cosmetic filtering. (Somewhat hit and miss on Youtube tho). Malicious extensions and filter list exploits are a problem, and while Google is attempting to fix this somewhat with Manifest V3, it’s not perfect. From my experience with Ublock Origin Lite in Edge, you don’t currently get cosmetic filtering without granting privileged access, which defeats the point. Otherwise, it appears to be as effective as DNS blocking.

• The App Privacy Report makes it super easy (provided you’re not connected to a VPN) to see what domains an app connects to. I can check the entry for my offline password manager for example, and see that it isn’t pinging anything other than inappcheck.itunes.apple.com. I think this is used to query the in app purchase status.

For disadvantages:

• Telemetry: even with everything opted out of, Apple still collects hardware data, local MAC Addresses (for their location services database, this is also noted in their documentation). Also, for some reason they insist on tying collected click heatmaps in the app store/books/stocks app directly to the Apple ID. (This is just off the top of my head, I may be missing something). I don’t personally consider this a deal breaker (Apple already knows what apps I download), but I can understand why they’ve been raked over the coals for it given how much they market privacy.

• While iMessage is touted for being end to end encrypted, the defaults have it backing up unencrypted to the cloud, which defeats the point. There is Advanced Data Protection now, but both sides of a conversation would have to turn it on.

• VPNs on iOS leak. This is different from Android where it can be argued that connectivity checks are a good thing and don’t send personal data, but with iOS certain system apps appear to just straight up bypass it.

• Without sideloading, it’s basically impossible to use an iPhone without logging in.

• Some stuff such as the gyroscope still doesn’t require a permission to access.

• Allowing carriers to do this.

Some other points I’d like to make:

• Being proprietary does not mean that something is an insecure, unverifiable black box. Security researchers scrutinize Apple all the time for vulnerabilities.

• They don’t appear to be conducting CSAM scanning despite some FUD about it

• I looked through my GDPR Apple Takeout some time ago, and iirc it was about 11 mb in size due to me opting out of everything, and didn’t contain majorly sensitive information.

I use Apple Watch, phone and iPad because they just work. For my computer, I use Linux. Don’t overthink it.

Having languished for years hoping for new updates of android and being hampered by carriers or phone makers, I greatly enjoy the long term support apple gives to its devices.

On then computer front I’m a huge fan of Linux distros. If I could I’d move on from windows.

While it’s true that Apple doesn’t contribute anything to being open there’s always a cost-benefit trade off. “Bad guys ™️” made chemo, but we still use it. If you’re such a big proponent of openness and you use Apple - donate some cash (as able) to an open source project. It doesn’t have to be all or none.